F1 wants 2-strokes with bio fuel.

"Grindintosecond" (Grindintosecond) 01/19/2020 at 12:08 • Filed to: None

2

26

Motorsport Magazine reported this. I guess they feel a threat from Formula-E. F1 wants to be carbon neutral and improve noise, something Fe has none of, and do it by around 2025. I know two stroke power has developed quite a bit since the 500gp motors, but still, this is at odds with recent announcements from Mercedes and Audi on ending ICE development. (But VW group hasn’t ended it for all branches)

How do you think this would build up? I’m thinking about varying ratios and strokes of the above picture for higher rpm with turbos antilagged by electric motors, perhaps even a three row mini Napier deltic type. That type works as two stroke by using charge air to blow out all the exhaust.

Iwould love to see F1 finally lift design restrictions such as mandantory vee angles, max bore limits, max cylinder counts. If BRM lazarusses and wants a 24cylinder 2 liter deltic, let them I say. Makers like Subaru have been kept out of near everything by mandantory vee engines or cylinder counts.

If they keep nanny revs out, we could see massive industry interest. But the F1 money won’t allow that, I think.

How about you?

With direct injection tech at hand, we have quite an exciting prospect.

jimz > Grindintosecond 01/19/2020 at 12:28

0

that design was used for the Rootes-Lister TS3 diesel:

opposed piston engines are neat, but with that much additional moving mass they’d be a lot lower revving.

Grindintosecond > jimz 01/19/2020 at 12:31

0

Maybe. Titanium bits help, but that's just one option. I'm sure they'll use a form of junkers diesel design. Using gears and not long rods. The cammer truck motor was good like this too. Loud! 

McMike > Grindintosecond 01/19/2020 at 12:31

1

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3VXEDUVkbt8

This isn’t nearly as funny when they won’t embed.

DasWauto > Grindintosecond 01/19/2020 at 12:41

1

I get the desire for aural excitement but unless such a move can promise a large improvement in efficiency this is going to b e a hard sell for any manufacturer given the complete lack of relevance to road car development. It would never be worthwhile developing such technology only for racing because it is completely counter to the direction motive power is moving for cars.

I’m with you on less restrictions on power unit configurations though. I think these turbo units should have had cylinder count/layout freedom from the start. It could have provided some welcome variety on the grid and worked within the same fuel flow and displacement regulations (I think Ferrari could’ve gone v8, Renault and Honda would’ve gone inline 4, Mercedes could’ve gone either way for me).

MultiplaOrgasms > jimz 01/19/2020 at 13:05

0

Uniflow type Two Stroke engines like these or the Detroit Diesel were only ever used in industrial or commercial applications where weight was less of a concern than efficiency . I’d be interested to see what type of two stroke engines could be used effectively in an F1 application. 

MultiplaOrgasms > jimz 01/19/2020 at 13:05

0

Uniflow type Two Stroke engines like these or the Detroit Diesel were only ever used in industrial or commercial applications where weight was less of a concern than efficiency . I’d be interested to see what type of two stroke engines could be used effectively in an F1 application. 

jimz > MultiplaOrgasms 01/19/2020 at 13:30

1

the Dodge/Plymouth Neon came very close to having a two stroke engine.

https://www.allpar.com/neon/stroke.html

that was to have been a blower-scavenged uniflow engine.  Never panned out. 

ttyymmnn > Grindintosecond 01/19/2020 at 13:36

4

I can’t comment much on the engine concept, but I think it’s rather ludicrous that F1 is so obsessed with the carbon footprint of their race cars when they burn god knows how much fuel in aircraft and trucks carting the circus around the world. The emissions of an F1 engine, even the mighty V-12s, must be a spit in the ocean compared to the road show. 

ItalianJobR53 - now with added 'MERICA and unreliability > Grindintosecond 01/19/2020 at 13:38

1

I’m with you on relaxing restrictions. S et a max fuel flow limit and cost cap, and see what the manufacturers come up with.

MultiplaOrgasms > jimz 01/19/2020 at 13:38

0

Interesting stuff, but too much of a risk innit? Not to mention the question of how these would last under real world Dodge Neon conditions. 

M.T. Blake > Grindintosecond 01/19/2020 at 13:49

0

They’ll go Hydrogen powered before you’ll see two stroke, diesel, or some other non-traditional  form of a combustion engine. Electricity will happen when batteries allow a full race under one charge - not in our lifetime. 

SiennaMan > Grindintosecond 01/19/2020 at 14:21

0

So, to improve their eco image they’re going to engines that burn oil by design? I feel like I’m missing something here, or are they wanting something anti-eco?

Personally, I think if they want to go 2 stroke they should simplify the regs to where you have a max vehicle length, width, height and maybe weight and otherwise you can do anything you want... provided you’re using used lawn equipment engines.

1 per wheel? 10 per side daisy chained together? Entirely up to you..

kanadanmajava1 > Grindintosecond 01/19/2020 at 16:24

1

The opposite piston 2-stroke engine type works the best with compression ignition. Especially if you use two crankshafts with a mild timing difference. This will allow timing for the port overlap.

Kharkiv Morozov Machine Building Design Bureau in Ukraine has been building these since 50's. They are mostly used for tanks but some other purposes do also exist. At least 3,5,6, 10 and 12 cylinder variants exist.

Of course we are not seeing very high engine speeds with these for a diesel the sound like they are running way past any sensible redline.

Cé hé sin > jimz 01/19/2020 at 17:02

0

The Fiesta went close enough that a hundred prototypes were built and handed out various organisations including police forces in the UK. Nothing came of it as the engines didn’t meet the claims made of them.

Cé hé sin > SiennaMan 01/19/2020 at 17:04

1

T wo strokes do not inherently run on fuel/oil mixture though . Engines with blown scaven ging use conventional lubrication.

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > ttyymmnn 01/19/2020 at 17:47

1

I was going to ping you on this one. Global warming is a hoax. Nice visit with Missus and good math on the phone with A.

SiennaMan > Cé hé sin 01/19/2020 at 18:25

0

 Good to know.  The only two strokes I know bleached a cloud of blue smoke when started.  Can't say I miss that..  lol

jimz > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo 01/20/2020 at 05:13

0

Global warming is a hoax.

Well I’m glad you cleared that up for us.

“Hey everyone! Ignore everything that’s going on in the world, ‘cos this guy on the internet says it isn’t real.”

jimz > SiennaMan 01/20/2020 at 05:21

0

Here’s an example, this is a two stroke V8 with turbocharging:

Instead of running the air-fuel charge through the entire engine like a small two stroke, the crankcase is sealed like any normal car or truck 4 stroke engine. Airflow is provided by a Roots blower pushing air into the “air box” which breathes via intake ports in the cylinder wall and exhaust valves in the cylinder head.

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > jimz 01/20/2020 at 11:07

0

Um, you knew I was being sarcastic,  right? If not, let’s set that one straight. It’s too bad Liberals are so easy to own because they’re doing a fine job of letting themselves be owned.

jimz > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo 01/20/2020 at 11:33

0

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poe%27s_law

spend enough time in the comments at TTAC to see way too many people who believe it in earnest. 

and 100 more > Grindintosecond 01/20/2020 at 13:10

0

So, 10 -speed sequential shift gearboxes?

Saracen > jimz 01/20/2020 at 13:48

0

Wait, so that’s twincharged?

jimz > Saracen 01/20/2020 at 13:57

1

not really. the engine cannot run without the roots blower; it provides all of the airflow through the cylinders. a Detroit two-stroke with just a blower is considered “normally aspirated.” the turbo is the only boost-providing part. this would be a 6-71N (inline 6, 71 c.i. per cylinder, normally aspirated:)

Just a blower, no turbo. the engine in my previous comment is an 8V-92TA (V8, 92 c.i. per cylinder, turbocharged, aftercooled.)

as an aside, whenever you see a hot rod or car build for the drag strip which says it has a “6-71 supercharger” on it, it’s because it has a blower with the same displacement as the one on a 6-71 Detroit Diesel engine.  Back in the ‘40s and ‘50s hot rodders used to actually take the blowers off of these diesels and use them on their drag cars. 

Grindintosecond > and 100 more 01/20/2020 at 14:19

2

Im hoping they lift their ban on CVTs and we can get some real decent reiable road  going tech out of it finally.

jimz > kanadanmajava1 01/20/2020 at 14:39

0

the -53 series Detroits were well known as “Screamers.”